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Onderwerp: Pre- purchase

Pre- purchase 11 sept 2020 11:41 #1205296

  • Joop66
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About the cost and hassle of a survey:

1: It is still less than 10% of the puchase amount.
2: Trust us when we say that the amount spent on a mis-purchase will be many times that.
3: For Google Translate:
- Koop een boot, klus je dood.
- Een boot is een gat in het water waar onbeperkt geld en tijd in verdwijnt.
- Zeilen is de duurste manier om gratis nergens te komen.
- Zeilen is onder een koude douche lachend briefjes van 100 verscheuren.

I think I am a rather technical guy. Still I had quite a few sore and expensive regrets after buying both of my boats. Different from what you migth think, a boat is a fairly crappily engineered thing, which holds the technology of a car, a house and a boat all at once. Especially an old boat can pose quite a serious risk in terms of finance, time and energy.

After having owned a boat for 15 years now, I will never again buy one without a professional survey.

Having said that: Happy boat hunting!
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Pre- purchase 11 sept 2020 21:05 #1205451

Wow, thanks for being so inclusive with foreign people. Hope life gives you back the same hospitality when you travel outside the NL. Maybe I need to learn Dutch as a language but for sure you need to learn a bit of education.
Have a great evening.
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Pre- purchase 11 sept 2020 21:07 #1205453

You may ignore that guy, we all do...
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Pre- purchase 11 sept 2020 21:09 #1205455

Really appreciate your insights. Thanks
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 00:11 #1205471

  • ReneK
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zuipschuit schreef :
Beste Nicolas,
Waarom moet dit hier in alle vanzelfsprekendheid ineens in het Engels gevoerd worden?
Als je de Nederlandse taal niet machtig bent dan kun je dat op zijn minst verduidelijken.

Misschien kun je opgeven in welke buurt de boot ligt en over welk budget het gaat.

vriendelijke groet
Zuipschuit

En de NLse zeilers zich maar afvragen waarom we in het buitenland met enige reserve benaderd worden

And here the Dutch sailors are asking themselves why they are met with reservations when they get abroad

You Sir Zuipschuit , are the prefect respresentative for the Dutch sailing community
www.svbluepearl.com

eindelijk weg uit Panama nu in Aruba
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 00:42 #1205474

brambo schreef :
It is not cosmetic. The cause is in the material itself.

It is a problem originating from the construction and the used material during the building process.

The cause is simple. If the grp laminate contains soluble components then these can generate this blisters due to osmotic pressure when in contact with water. Separation of the glass fiber layers is also possible.

This can be remains of the curing process or the main cause the binder of the glass fibre reinforcement.

A boat does not sink from osmosis effect. But can weaken the construction.

Don't buy a boat with osmosis.

You cannot change the material.

Bram
Don't make so much drama, some bubbles in the hull do not change the quality of the boat and a boat will not weaken from it in the slightest bit. It is pure 110% cosmetic and does not have to be dealt with if you don;t wish to do so.
Erik de Jong (Team Zeilersforum.nl)
“The greatest threat to our planet is the belief that someone else will save it”
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 04:51 #1205476

The “osmosis” topic is can of worms with widely varying opinions. One thing is for sure however: when buying a boat, you can turn this into your favour advantage and realise a significant price reduction ;)
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 05:31 #1205478

Hi Nicolas,

I live in Leiden, and am happy to join you to visit the boat together.
I am not a professional surveyor, but i do have quite a bit of knowledge about old sailboats (especially repairing mechanical parts/maintenance), and sometimes it is good to have somebody there who can look at it very independently.

The best ofcourse is a professional survey, second best is somebody who can give an opinion and “second set of eyes” during the check of the boat...

Cost of the visit will be a cold beer in a bar in the Centre of Leiden :)
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 07:22 #1205495

  • Tony2920
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wwwillem schreef :
Hey Nicolas,

Welcome to the forum.

Some small children speak dutch, and some people that speak dutch behave like small children.
Like small children that are makig a fuss, if you just ignore them they'll quiet down eventually.

I hope it works out with the boat.

+1
I run a tight . . .
Shipwreck !
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 07:28 #1205496

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Nachtvlinder schreef :
The “osmosis” topic is can of worms with widely varying opinions. One thing is for sure however: when buying a boat, you can turn this into your favour advantage and realise a significant price reduction ;)

It is not a can of worms with different opnions. There has been a lot of research done to the cause of the Osmose princible in GRP constructions. It is not only in the hull construction but can also appear in GRP tanks for drinking water, which is not good for your health.

It is in the material and does not go away with an Osmoses treatment.

Sometimes it is only just below the gelcoat. But separation of the grp layers is also possible.

I repeat my warning don't buy a boat with osmosis. This is just the can of worms, because you don't know where it ends. And repairs are very time consuming and costly.

Can also be a sign of a bad cured laminate.

Yes, you can reduce the price for the boat and this is not for only a cosmetic problem.

Bram
Laatst bewerkt: 12 sept 2020 07:33 door brambo.
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 07:37 #1205499

brambo schreef :
Nachtvlinder schreef :
The “osmosis” topic is can of worms with widely varying opinions. One thing is for sure however: when buying a boat, you can turn this into your favour advantage and realise a significant price reduction ;)

It is not a can of worms with different opnions. There been a lot of research done to the cause of the Osmose princible in GRP constructions. It is not only in the hull construction but can also appear in GRP tanks for drinking water, which is not good for your health.

It is in the material and does not go away with an Osmoses treatment.

Sometimes it is only just below the gelcoat. But separation of the grp layers is also possible.

I repeat my warning don't buy a boat with osmosis. This is just the can of worms, because you don't know where it ends. And repairs are very time consuming and costly.

Can also be a sign of a bad cured laminate.

Yes, you can reduce the price for the boat and this is not for only for a cosmetic problem.

Bram

I agree with Bram. There is no need to buy a boat with osmosis problems. Just walk away, and buy another boat, there are a lot for sale in the Netherlands..
Further, if you buy one without osmosis-signs, but they develop anyway after some years, it’s not the end of the world, but i would not consisously buy one with this issue... (just my humble opinion ofcourse..)
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 08:17 #1205512

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If a laminate is affected by osmosis it can't be repaired in the way that you can't change the laminate properties. But you can definitely take one of the causes away: the moisture. This can only be done durable, and with a lifetime warranty, by laminating a few layers of glass/epoxy or glass/vinylester over a well dried laminate. I would only advice coatings as gelshield for boats that might be sensitive to osmosis, for instance if sisterships have developed blisters. I wouldn't dare to use it to repair a boat, in the way as to give a guarantee on it. Some yards do, but only very limited.
Most of the time osmosis isn't very damaging, a wet resin matrix loses some strength, but that's what the glass part in the laminate if for anyway, and a wet laminate doesn't have to have osmosis or be susceptible to it(most boats are wet to some degree). Osmosis will cause some minor delamination, affecting the panel stiffness, but that's only a very small part of what gives stiffness to the whole structure. And osmosis usually forms in badly degassed, thus porous laminates, which already have less panel stiffness.

So yeah, it's not very pretty, and bad craftsmanship from the builder. But every boat has its secrets, no boat is perfect. It wouldn't be a big deal for me personally. So here, another opinion for in the can of worms ;)
Freelance jachtbouwer-cirrus composites
Laatst bewerkt: 12 sept 2020 08:19 door JRomkes.
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 08:55 #1205527

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Some yards give a guarantee on the osmosis treatment. But they calculate that a small part of the repaired boats returns with a repeating of the osmosis.

GRP is not water/vapour tight. But only moisture is not the problem.

It is the soluble parts in the laminate that generates the osmotic pressure in combination with water. In fresh water it is more a problem, then in seawater enviroments.
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 21:15 #1205720

  • redshift
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Nicolas,

Don't know which yard you asked, but lifting for just an inspection should be possible for much less than 200. Possibly even less than 100 if you oy stay in the strops for an hour or so. Ask about a bit, prices vary a lot.

Second, it's fairly common (or used to be) to agree that the person who's claim is correct does not pay for the crane costs: the seller claims the boat is OK, you claim you don't trust them. You only pay if the boat is indeed OK. This only works if you have an agreement on price in advance, though.
Laatst bewerkt: 12 sept 2020 21:16 door redshift.
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Pre- purchase 12 sept 2020 21:33 #1205725

hi Nicolas,

as the other guy here, I also live in Leiden. I am not a professional surveyor, but I do have some experience with 80's boats from your budget. I'd be happy to check out the boat with you and have beer in Leiden afterwards. If you're interested, send me a personal message.
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